Big Green

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Big Green

Postby Doktor_Sleepless » Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:46 pm

This deck is completely theoretical, and has no testing involved.

Anyone familiar with the Mono-Red combo deck known as Sneak and Breach is aware of the power of the sac lands from Mercadian Masques in conjunction with the Sol lands. Sneak and Breach takes advantage of the Dragon Stompy package of Sol lands+Chrome Mox+Chalice of the Void+Trinisphere+Blood Moon to get the opponent in an early game soft lock, then finishes by powering out Griselbrand or Emrakul via a Sneak Attack or Through the Breach. Griselbrand allows the deck to draw fresh cards and be lethal in one turn, or set up to combo out again the following turn. The deck also runs Inferno Titan and Sandstone Needle. Needle helps to power out early lock pieces and rituals into creature accelerants. Inferno Titan ends games by being 12 damage off of a Sneak Attack or Through the Breach, but is also hard castable off of 2 Sol Land and a Sandstone Needle.

I'm interested in following a similar model in green. Why green? A few reasons. First, green gives us access to spells analogous to Sneak Attack and Through the Breach. Second, because the quality of fatties green gets is excellent. Third, because green is naturally strong post-board against blue decks, which means we can expect to improve against control; combo decks are always at their best when they can improve against control post-board. And finally, because green has decent methods of card draw, which helps if we aren't playing Griselbrand (hint: we're not). Let's take a look at the proposed initial list, and the reasoning behind card choices.

4 Dramatic Entrance
4 Garruk, Caller of Beasts (other cards considered were Elvish Piper and Lure of Prey)
4 Primeval Titan
4 Worldspine Wurm
3 Terastodon (possibly Woodfall Primus or Sylvan Primordial)
1 Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger (this might be too cute, and should just be a 4th Terastodon)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
2-3 Lightning Greaves
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Hickory Woodlot
9 Forest


Let's dig into cards, possible alternate choices, and the basic game plan here.

4 Dramatic Entrance is our version of 4 Through the Breach. There are benefits and drawbacks. Being instant speed in many ways makes up for not giving our creature haste, and not having the sacrifice drawback is handy. The mana cost is more restrictive, however, and the restriction on creature color is part of what forces us to abandon the Emrakul/Griselbrand plan. The other possible cards for this slot are Lure of Prey and Natural Order, but both impose too many restrictions on timing/board state to be truly excellent here. From mana cost to effect, Dramatic Entrance is truly the best analog for Through the Breach.

4 Garruk, Caller of Beasts is our replacement for Through the Breach. Elvish Piper was considered for this slot, but was abandoned because of the lack of haste/negative interaction with removal. Garruk's activation guarantees a creature in play, even if Lightning Bolt targets him in response to activation the turn he comes down. Additionally, he fits our mana scheme well (Woodlot+2 sol lands casts him on turn 3, as does sol lands and chrome mox and basic land) and can act to patch the missing hole of Griselbrand by digging for fatties. His +1 goes 5 cards deep, which is a very relevant number in a deck like this.

This configuration gives us 8 ways to cheat fatties into play: 4 repeatable, 4 one-offs. This parallels our model deck of Sneak and Breach very well in concept, if not perfectly evenly in execution.

We run a dozen fatties, just like our model deck, and I propose the following configuration:

4 Primeval Titan to parallel Inferno Titan. Not only is it hard-castable, but it actually ramps the deck into hard-casting more fatties, furthuring our game plan in a different way from Inferno Titan in Sneak and Breach. The ETB on primetime puts us from 6 mana to 10 (assuming it enters off of 6 mana) if you fetch sol lands or Hickory Woodlots, so that a land drop the following turn allows for hard-cast Worldspine Wurm. Even if a land drop is missed or primetime enters off of less than 6 mana, the following turn one of our other fatties can be cast. Primetime also thins our deck quickly, making Garruk's +1 activation more effective.

4 Worldspine Wurm is our answer to the loss of Emrakul, and boy what an answer. With Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere and Lightning Greaves as protection from Swords to Plowshares and/or JTMS, the wurm is a massive fattie that most decks can't interact with profitably, if at all. He's also not out of the realm of hard-casting if the game goes long or primetime hits the board. And of course, an end step Dramatic Entrance into an opponent's tapped out board will be pretty rough for them.

Rounding out our 12 fattie package is 4 Terastodon, which could also be Woodfall Primus or Sylvan Primordial depending on the meta or testing results. Terastodon gets the nod because of his ability to reverse multiple board threats or produce his own Edict protection by blowing up your own lands or other permanents. In general, however, simply putting the 'don into play and blowing up an opposing JTMS/threatening permanent, your own land, and nothing will be amazing. Again, the protection from our artifact lock pieces and Lightning Greaves is leaned on to protect our threat. Being an 8 drop with double green makes this guy castable in our deck on good land draws or off of primetime triggers. Also, I realize in the list I have 1 Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger. We all know that's being too cute.

Next we have 4 Elvish Spirit Guideand 4 Chrome Mox as mana accelerants for early game lock pieces and ahead-of-schedule fatties. Elf replaces Simian Spirit Guide from our model deck, obviously.

4 Chalice of the Void and 4 Trinisphereprovide early game soft locks against many decks, allowing us to pull ahead or resolve things like Garruk, Caller of Beasts. Finally the addition of a few Lightning Greavesis necessary to help provide additional methods of protecting our fatties and/or getting lots of damage in quickly.

The mana base is pretty self-explanatory, closely mirroring the mana of the deck but running more lands, all of them basic forests (taking up slots that are rituals in the model deck).

This deck sacrifices speed, giving up the turn 1-2 blistering speed possibility of Sneak and Breach. But what it gives up in speed, it hopefully makes up for in inevitability (being able to hard-cast fatties if it stays alive).

Our sideboard probably begins with some good protection against discard decks, a natural foe of combo. We've got access to this doozy, so let's get 4 copies of Obstinate Baloth.

I've always hated blue decks, so let's get some hate for blue in the form of the nigh-unbeatable Thrun, the Last Troll. 3 copies should suffice to give blue decks fits.

Now we need to worry about more targeted issues. Many Reanimator decks will pull the old Iona, Shield of Emeria trick, and I bet Dredge is a miserable matchup without hate, so let's get some good grave hate. 3 copies of Ground Sealis a good start.

2 copies of Creeping Corrosion should help keep fringe decks that need their artifacts more than we do, like Tezzerator and Affinity, in check.

Finally, as a fun filler for hating out Liliana of the Veildecks and Emrakul decks, let's go with 3 Tajuru Preservers for now. I'm sure there are objectively better choices. I don't care for this rough draft.

So now we have this:

4 Dramatic Entrance
4 Garruk, Caller of Beasts (other cards considered were Elvish Piper and Lure of Prey)
4 Primeval Titan
4 Worldspine Wurm
4 Terastodon
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Lightning Greaves
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Hickory Woodlot
9 Forest

[deck]4 Obstinate Baloth
3 Ground Seal
3 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Tajuru Preserver
2 Creeping Corrosion[/deck]

So what do we think? Anyone want to assemble this monster and put it through some rounds?
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Re: Big Green

Postby eldashgato » Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:35 am

I'd be curious to see this built. I think if you're playing Green, you should take a cue from 12post and include Depths + Stage for Primeval to ramp out.

You know, if you cut all the Chalices you could play Exploration. I could see this enabling ridiculous plays, like hardcasting turn 2 Primeval Titans.

EDIT: The more I think about this, I can't see why you wouldn't run Exploration. If you cast it off a Mox or Spirit Guide turn 1, then cast Titan turn 2, you could in theory have ten lands on the board by turn 3. Sure, Titan will probably eat an STP or something, but you could ramp out, say, a Dryad Arbor or Khalni Garden against a Liliana deck. (When I played Eldrazi Green in Standard, I ramped out Khalni Gardens all the time against B/R vampires to stem the tide of beats and protect Titans from kicked copies of Gatekeeper of Malakir.)
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Re: Big Green

Postby Doktor_Sleepless » Sun Jul 13, 2014 7:41 pm

I'm sure that there's a build that could want Exploration, I'm just not sure if this is it. A lot of the appeal of playing a deck like this lies in shutting out tempo decks like RUG Delver that want to Brainstorm into Spell Pierces and other one-drops.

I like the other suggestions, and while I'm a little iffy on going down a few green sources, I'm comfortable making these changes:

-3 Forest
+1 Khalni Garden
+1 Thespian's Stage
+1 Dark Depths

I'm also into the idea of Progenitus being one of the fatties in the deck, if it turns out Worldspine Wurm or Terastodon won't cut it.
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Re: Big Green

Postby Doktor_Sleepless » Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:22 pm

I think part of what you're aiming at is to hybridize this list with 12-Post; based on comments here and in other discussions. Consider this build, which is a bit different but I think very strong in my mind:

[deck]4 Exploration
4 Trinisphere
3 Lightning Greaves
4 Chrome Mox
4 Garruk, Caller of Beasts
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Primeval Titan
4 Worldspine Wurm
2 Terastodon
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Eternal Witness
4 Hickory Woodlot
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Khalni Garden
1 Dryad Arbor
5 Forest[/deck]

This is a more hybridized version of the decks. By removing Chalice of the Void to remove the negative interaction with Exploration, we open up the possibility of a couple of Crop Rotation, which plays well with Primeval Titan's tutoring toolbox. Green Sun's Zenith comes in as well, allowing more access to Primeval Titan, alteration of the fattie package to allow a small toolbox package (and the sweet Oracle of Mul Daya tech from 12-Post). Our big mana lands put in a lot of work, and even though we've given up our Dramatic Entrance plan, I think the added utility of the new cards and the speed of Exploration will allow some wild stuff, like turn 2 Garruk, Caller of Beasts or Primeval Titan, or in Xmasland, a play of Exile 4 Elvish Spirit Guide, Ancient Tomb, Garruk, Caller of Beasts (resolves because it's Death and Taxes and you won the die roll?), -3, Worldspine Wurm, Go. Which is probably terrible, but hilarious to think about.

One nice thing this deck can do? It can play Garruk, Caller of Beasts and then dump Primeval Titan to fetch either Khalni Garden+Dryad Arbor for multiple blockers and sac fodder (in case of Lili-2, play Lili, -2) or Terastodon to bomb out threats or extraneous lands to generate multiple blockers and sac fodder. All for 6 mana. This deck just wants :4mana: :symg: :symg: on board as fast as possible, to resolve its 8 six drop bombs.

All of these decks are probably just not very good, or people would be doing something with them right?
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